From: Larry Anderson (
Date: 1998-12-22 06:04:33

Frank Kontros wrote:
> Steve>I'm still a bit unclear on the purpose of this scheme.  While I certainly
> Steve>appreciate the technical merits, my question relates to the practical uses
> Steve>of the scheme.  So, let's say that after a long development time it works
> Steve>100% perfectly:
> >
> Steve>1) Who is going to use it?
> Steve>2) What are they going to use it for?
> That was an interesting question ...

That was my point; As I have a CMD HD, and the only time I use the 1541
partitions* is to construct 'disk sides' for utility or help disks, as I can
move files between HD partitions easier then copying between disks.

Most of the time I use native mode (un restricted partitions up to 255x256
blocks), because there is soooo much more space and no file limitations, only
disk space limits.

* Though some utilities do require 1541 emulation, one that I thought of
off-hand, Lew Lasher's Editor/Assembler which does not even work on a 1541
partition because it only emulates most of the characteristics not the 1541
drive functionality.

> Levente> - The solution is, to use regular disk images. How, and why to do this?
> >
> Steve>What kind of software are we talking about here?  Games are all I can think
> Steve>of that need a disk image.

Or old utility/prodictivity programs based on using solely 1541s.

> Dunno. Same speed. Same capacity (inside images). Compatibility under question. Worth?
> Except you hear not a floppy noise but a HDD rotating sweep :-)
> What about an alternative? Backup quickly disk image from HDD into floppy (GCR too) at
> 10-25 secs and use real 1541 for play it. Only one or two floppy disk needed for all prgs.
> Steve>2) What percentage of non-emulator users are dedicated gamers?
> Also an interesting question.

Most HD users I know of are either BBS Sysops (for the massive file lists and
storage capacity and DOS stability), GEOS enthusiasts (for the speed and
storage), some are 128 CP/M users (Again storage & speed).

> Steve>For what it's worth, CMD devices rather let you format different partitions
> Steve>in different ways (1541, 1581, native mode, etc.).  So it's similar to what
> Steve>you describe, but uses "CP" instead of "CD" (and of course uses a physical
> Steve>partition instead of a disk image).

Yep, the partitions are logical drives like in a PET Dual drive. (i.e.
partition 5 can be accessed by a "5:" preceding the filename, or by setting
the partiton to 5 (CP5) and the either using no drive number or "0:" (this is
interpreted as 'use current partition' for compatibility.)

> CMD devs little overpriced I think for this purpose. I cannot live with the
> following things:

Yes they are, but there isn't much else.  The other drives, Data Chief, C=
90x0, and Lt. Kernal are all mostly un-supported and hard to find.

> buy CMD 40 Megabyte HDD for             $269

> buy CMD 1750 512K REU for                $99

The above is just a Commodore  REU unit, nothing really unique there, RAMLink
is way more versatile.

> buy CMD FD-2000 (800K and 1.6 MB) for   $179

Does support 1581 and 1541 partitions, and can read/write IBM DD & HD disks
with the right utility.

> JiffyDOS C64/SX-64 System                $39
> JiffyDOS CMD HDD                         $19
> JiffyDOS CMD FDD                         $19

This is largely redundant, the first are JiffyDOS ROMS for the computer and
internal drive, the second two are just the same ROMs for the computer - the
CMD drives are already JiffyDOSed.  So subtract $40.  And the speed/utility of
the JiffyDOS is very significant (on ALL functions), don't discount it's value.

> --------------------------------------------
> All for                                 $624

> Just imagine you expanded only C64 with today minimum memory, floppy and hdd. Another
> calculation:
> buy used PC, maybe a 286/386 or 486sx with 2-4 meg RAM, 1.44 floppy and 200 meg HDD for $150
> (or less?). Oh I forgot, you hopefully get a monitor in this price.

...And add a crash-course in IBM troubleshooting as well.  (I hate helping
people with throw-together systems)

> All hardware in that PC  are much better comparable with the CMD configuration

If you factor out that that CMD stuff plugs into your Commodore right out of
the box then... maybe.

> (okey they're used, but for $624 I
> suppose something better also possible :-) What the user need connect that PC with C64 and
> use the PC's resources. Some programming challenge and little hardware.

IEC interfacing/timing and commodore drive emulation (enough to satisfy
BASIC/KERNAL calls) on a 'fill in the blank' 'beamer with ? HDD unit is just
'some programming'???  (PCs aren't all that standard.)

Though the hardware costs would be less to some, but not everyone has easy
access to such hardware.

> What else are
> necessary for today's C= user? And most of us already have PC around C64.

Sorry, Macintosh here.  The 'beamer parts are still collecting dust next to
the BBS.

> Levente> - When speaking of disk images, one thinks 1541 is good but there are a
> Levente> lot of other floppy drives too, all with the appropriate image formats.
> Levente> What about these?
> >
> Steve>Hmmm, which drives are you referring to?
> I think partition types accepted by CMD (1541, 1571, 1581) are really enough.

I agree, unless you were planning for IEEE-488 interfacing then you may want
to add 8050 and 8250 too.  :/

> Steve>the 64 which are effectively useless, or at least not used.  This in general
> Steve>happens because they are either too difficult to use, too specialized,
> Steve>or address problems which simply aren't of much concern on the 64.
> And that's the main problem with all complicated things.
> Steve>I find that while there's great personal satisfaction in writing a program,
> Steve>it's an awful lot nicer if the program actually gets used by others
> Great words.
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