From: Scott McDonnell (netsamurai_at_comcast.net)
Date: 2007-04-08 23:34:58
I agree with you about the 512 cycles, now that I read up a bit more. The sample rate would actually be 1/512uS which works out to be about 1.9KHz. We need to take half of that to comply with the nyquist rate to get the fastest frequency we could reliably sample, which is 850Hz. This does not take into account any processing time (though, I would think with some slick machine code, the samples could be fetched and stored quickly enough.) It is also assuming that the 512 clock cycles will complete regardless of the count. That is how I understand it to work. "Some" audio samples may actually be possible to capture with the right support circuitry. Would probably sound horrible, though. This is beyond my programming abilities, though I think I could design the support circuitry to do it. Sorry, there was some miscommunication there about the multiplexing. There are two POT inputs to the SID and two pots on each control port. POTX and POTY of the given control port are connected to the SID at the same time. The PORTS are multiplexed, not the POT lines. This is done by the CD4066. My mistake in not being clear. Perhaps my last post will explain the charge/discharge issue. I am fairly certain Jeri just used a modern ADC, since it wouldn't make much sense to do it exactly the way the original commodore worked when there are better and easier ways now. There is an ADC chip connected to the POT on the Hummer. I don't have one in front of me, but it is probably one of the Dallas Semi integrating slope ADCs (dual slope, most likely.) It isn't important to emulate it exactly, as long as the SID registers are filled with the values expected by a game. You have a lot more license to do it your way when you recreate the internals. That's the secret of emulation: As long as the circuit takes the inputs expected and outputs the results as expected, what happens in between isn't all that important. Again, yours and Levente's methods both work as you both have demonstrated. Nobody is questioning that, of course. But, I am just assuming since the original poster didn't go that route, that he is dealing with a linear voltage source, not a micro. Perhaps he will clear that up before any more time is spent on this. Scott -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of Jim Brain Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 4:43 PM To: email@example.com Subject: Re: Commodore joystick ports Scott McDonnell wrote: > Pasi, > > 512 cycles, because of the nyquist rate (at least 2x the max desired > sample frequency), perhaps? > Since I've already put a disclaimer out on my analog skills, I don't believe that is the reason, since the ADC in the SID was not designed to measure waveforms, just a static load. Based on testing, they do not appear to be multiplexed. I base that on placing two 10K resistors from 5volts (pin 7) to both POT lines. The scope shows the drive to 0v happens at the same exact moment. From: http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426444/sidtech3.html "These pins are inputs to the A/D converters used to digitize the position of potentiometers. The conversion process is based on the time constant of a capacitor tied from the POT pin to ground, charged by a potentiometer tied from the POT pin to +5 volts. The component values are determined by: R*C = 4.7E-4 Where R is the maximum resistance of the pot and C is the capacitor. The larger the capacitor, the smaller the POT value jitter. The recommended values for R and C are 470 kOhm and 1000 pF. Note that a separate pot and cap are required for each POT pin. " If I disconnect the 10K from one POT line 1.0volt is still charged onto the cap. The discharge time goes down quite a bit, but it's still 1uS or so. I'm struggling with the note above about measuring the discharge time. Based on my notes, and allowing for the error introduced by using the scope, the difference between a reading of 10 and 255 is 1uS, far too small a time constant for the 64 to measure, no matter which clock you used for the counter. Jeri should chime in, since she re-implemented the SID POTs for the DTV, but based on more testing, I'm going to go with the following theory SID contains 1 9 bit counter, and 2 2volt comparators. 9th bit is hooked to 2 transistors that clamp input POT lines to ground. At time 0, SID releases the POT line from ground and starts counting. the internal comparator latches the current counter value (lower 8 bits) into the appropriate POT register when 2 volts is reached. At time 256, the 9th bit goes high, clamping the line to 0. the cycle repeats. (the comparator is still active, but the line will never reach 2.0v, so the value is never latched into the SID register.) At time 512, the counter rolls over, 9th bit goes low, releasing the POT line and the process repeats. I am pretty sure everything but the part in parens is correct. I connected a paddle and tried it out, while watching the scope. The reading was 255 until the charge cycle hit 2 volts. By varying the charge cycle to hit 2v at time 128 (0 being unclamping of the line), the POT register read 128 (or so). From the scope: (caclulated value in parens) 2v at 100% = 255 (255) 80%=210 (204) 75%=189 (191) 60%=153 (153) 50%=130 (127) 40%=104 (101) 20%=54 (51) 0%=4 (0) My statement in parens in the description is based on CBM designers being typically thrifty. I can see them implementing a 9 bit counter, using the high FF to switch a transistor that would drive the POT line to ground, but not bother with bypassing the comparator (since it would never get triggered). The thrifty rationale is how I explain the 512 cycle period. Since it would have taken 2-5uS to completely discharge the cap, they'd need to wait that long (or a bit longer) before unclamping the line and starting the counter. That would mean another counter, or a check of 261 (256 line + 5 or so) on the counter (more gates), and then more gates to reset the counter. Since the POT lines were assumed to be DC (no periodic waveforms), letting the counter simply roll over used the least gates for the task at hand. It piqued my interest, but I fear I've exhausted my free time to research this. Hopefully others can add more light to the mystery. FWIW, the AVR code I use to simulate the paddles is at http://www.jimbrain.com/WebSVN/filedetails.php?repname=PSXJoy&path=%2Ftr unk%2Fsrc%2Fjoy.c&rev=0&sc=0 Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) firstname.lastname@example.org Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! 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