Re: Open Source Considerations (was: Re: Any 6502 devs for hire?)

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:59 AM Jim Brain <brain_at_jbrain.com> wrote:

> On 5/5/2022 6:39 PM, Nejat Dilek wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm not interested in 1581 stuff so I didn't watch that project closely.
> Now that you mention it I hopped on to forum64 to watch the drama but
> original designer (toms01) seemed ok with everything going on around that
> 1581 replica.
>
> His "I don't care about it anyway" I feel was in response to the posting
> above #675 in the Replica 1581 thread, where someone was worried he was
> greatly upset about the clone.  Even in that same message, he is worried
> for the folks who forked over money to source the kits for sale.  And, in
> private comms to me, the tone was one of some lament, I felt.
>
My bad, I started reading that topic somewhere around  page 40 or so. Now
I've read it and see the posts of his reflections of getting pissed off.


> I just think it is bad form to join a thread, seeing there's a community
> project to source all the parts and the PCB for a replica, buy one of the
> kits, and then turn around and make a clone from the clone, stripping the
> author of the clone design from the PCB, etc.  And, to my original point,
> toms01 notes in the same response that he guesses he should obfuscate the
> CMD PCB designs he made.
>

I agree but unfortunately ethics just alone doesn't build any tangible form
of protection in this world. Stealing/Improper use of the gerber files
would be much more detrimental to the project by the way. In this case what
was not evident to the cloners is the big demand for these replica boards I
guess. I see that on amibay when accused of copying that one cloner comes
up with the smd version and such. In the grand scheme of things at least
original cloner and/or friends at least had the correct sense for the
demand for this and had the opportunity to stock required ICs cheaply when
in low demand compared to others. I don't know which is worse ; shameless
copying or hardware obfuscation... Again it will be twice the work, crack
the PLD but keep it secret for yourself and/or others short the supply,
increase the demand... it will be cracked faster than your original effort
I guess... I admire the people who put up all their work open source and
still sell reasonable amount of hardware and continue development (Keir
Fraser for example)


> Investigating further I see cloning (though not adding some features) a
> 1581 board dates at least back to 15 years ago.
> Since it's done commercially (I'm talking about clone's clone here) it's
> up to personal opinion of course but the original work being done seems not
> much different from documentation we easily consume over the web about
> these retro computers. Once software is involved though it's another topic
> of discussion. Lack of such intellectual property (such as in this case) of
> course makes copying or defending copying easier.
>
> I'm not undervaluing the reverse engineering effort put into that replica
> of course but in the end without any extra intellectual property it's
> doomed to be copied. (Especially if also there is sufficient interest too.)
>
> I submit that if folks are willing to grab a kit of a clone and then clone
> that kit and sell it, I don't think intellectual property considerations
> will make a difference.  If toms01 releases the PLD files and the PCB
> design for the RAMLink, I'd wager there will be handful of clones on the
> market within 3 months. That's the sad part about people in the community.
> I know I'm just stating the obvious, but this is what makes it more
> difficult to just put all the code and files online.
>
> And, I wonder if it prevents people on this list and others who have the
> same incredible capability to reverse engineer and design from even getting
> started, because they'd want to release and they know some jerk will just
> take the files and make a quick buck.  If true, that's even more sad.
>
>  <http://www.jbrain.com>
>
> It's harder to defend for the copier and there is the legal side of it.
One can sue such copying unlike copying of the pcb / schematic. A hobbyist
most probably won't proceed to the legal part though.

If you set your expectations correctly at the beginning closed / open
sourced  / partly closed partly open sourced and estimate the obvious then
there is no problem in starting a project I think. Targeting the maximum
fame and fortune is tough though... It needs tremendous effort from either
one or from a collaboration. (Nice case, nice website, nice  packaging and
so on from talented individuals)
This of course deters one to start an "easy to copy" but "challenging to
build" project since from the start you know that you need more effort then
you might put into it from the start. If you are doing just for the fun of
it it's a different matter though.

Experiences in my projects,
IRQHack64 : It was fully open source, gerbers were online, no public
commercial license given for profit ; Folks sold at least 2x-3x (of course
I don't know the exact market) the quantity without permission. Good side;
2 people (same Nationality) approached me for producing with my consent
with a share from the sales.
EasyKernal : Firmware not published, demand was low, there were no copying
incidents... It wouldn't get copied even if I put the sources online I
guess since the demand was so low.
JoyHack64 : Hardware is not secret I keep the software secret as I've put a
lot of effort into it... still I don't think there will be sufficient
demand for it to take it as a serious commercial feat.