Re: CBM Hackers

From: HÁRSFALVI Levente <>
Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 02:01:13 +0200
Message-ID: <>
Hi Bil,

On 2012-04-23 20:59, Bil Herd wrote:
> Anybody see anything wrong if I make an archive or a live feed of CBM
> Hackers on my website?

A couple of things that come to mind have already been pointed out by 
others. A couple of other things have been not (yet).

This is a very old list. In fact, this list started off as two separate 
lists at way back in the early '90s. A rather large 
percentage of members have joined already back then and kept their 
memberships ever since.

When I ask myself, what makes cbm-hackers different from general 
Commodore-related forums and usenet newsgroups at the first place, I can 
only think of the most basic difference: this is a mailing list, whilst 
the others are mostly online discussion forums. To approach that from a 
bit different point, and a bit more of a depth, the norms of some 
specific group are transmitted (kept up) by resident group members (the 
more respected, the better). This works as long as fluctuation is 
relatively low (ie. new members adopt the norms of the group, and not 
the other way around), and new, to-be members are generally ready / able 
to accept the specific group's norms... (or already represent most of 
the norms themself in the optimal case). Online discussion forums aren't 
very good at that. Fluctuation is usually pretty high, "membership" is 
flimsy, not really defined. This list, from the other hand, has had its 
core group from the very beginning, with its rather unique norms. 
Preserving these norms has IMO always been helped by the fact that, in 
order to be a member, someone definitely had to 1.) find the list, 2.) 
find out how to sign up, 3.) commit the sign-up process, 4.) and _then_, 
he could post his first message. (Such a simple requirement of 
commitment and ability, as it appears, can make such difference...)

So, if you ask me, I'm absolutely fine with list archives, as long as 
they respect list members privacy. I agree, making these discussions 
available as an information base is a good thing and is preferred (well, 
generally, for most of the archive content). Purely listing and indexing 
what has been discussed on the list also doesn't seem to have any 
negative impact on the list (by itself) in any way.

As others have pointed out, filtering and mangling e-mail addresses 
should be a must. I'd add that I'm not sure whether listing posters' 
full names with posts is preferred (at least if the archive was fully 
open for both the public and online indexing engines). Strictly 
speaking, list members never permit lists to make their posts world 
readable, let alone have them indexed by public search engines at the 
first place (as traditional mailing lists are simply never truly world 
readable, e-mails are shared amongst list members only, and are 
definitely never indexed to the public), even if list archives are done 
as they're usually done.

If you're planning on going further and make something even more 
sophisticated than a mailing list archive, though, I'd suppose that it's 
most probably fine as long as it doesn't change the list's most basic 
principle, ie. that it is a mailing list. That is, as long as potential 
newbies still have to sign up in e-mail, as ever, and still post to the 
list in e-mail. (No online web ui skin on top of the list with "simple" 
signup + online posting options and such.)

Technically speaking, this list is currently maintained by Uz a.k.a 
Ullrich von Bassewitz, you should probably contact him (if you haven't 
already done so).

Best regards,


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